Alarming if true.

[tommy thumb]

Had some after work drinks on Friday, and as it’s getting into the silly season there were a few extra ppl around the table. Eagle st on a Friday afternoon lots of sexy girl and wankers. Anyway 1 of the guys at the table a youngish project manager iv meet in work circles but never had any direct business dealing with. Was starting to be a dick.Good looking, provate schooled, loaded parents, rugby nob. Full of piss, rack and self importance.

So his claim to fame was that he got the clap(STI) from a random girl he saw a couple of times. Was saying how he hated using doms and tried to get away with it whenever he can. I also hate them, never use them in a relationship, and in a moment of stupidity have banged a few working girls both FS and ML bare back. Currently having unprotected sex with a shop girl. ( as Austin powers said “ I also like to live dangerously). More likely I’m a stupid cunt.

Anyway back on topic he said. He was asked about it said not a big deal as he’s had it befor. Then came the bomb. Said he had been to a few massage shops befor he got treated. I asked what happened. His answer
“ he loves shop girls cause they are stupid and don’t ask about protection or if they ask he just pays more”.

He was told it was fucked. But said they are just shop sluts and if they don’t want cock get a job at a sushi shop. Then the other rugby dickheads all laughed. I finished my drink and left.

Be careful in your punting brothers. There are dickhead punters and ignorant shops girls who don’t give a fuck about your health.

[Tavs]

See how much he is bragging when one of the 'stupid shop girls' turns up with a baby in her arms claiming it is his as he was actually the stupid one who texted the shop for a booking so they have his details that can be traced and he kept bragging what a rich guy he is so the girl then took a punt and allowed him to bareback her on the chance that she can get a visa and guaranteed money from him for 18 years.

[tommy thumb]

A guy knowingly going bare back with an STI is more alarming than if he gets her knocked up or not.

[blake_ly]

Technically a criminal offence ranging from assault to GBH i think. https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/con-or-condom-uproar-over-changes-to-hiv-and-sti-disclosure-law/news-story/7e07c4f76526d4073f5f423e3303da07

Probably find the shops he's been to and avoid them like the plague... I've always found it incomprehensible when people tell me they do BB with working girls or ML.

[brownwallaby]

I had a forced BB session with an early 30s Indian shop girl (back in 2012). I told her I didn’t have a dom and she said ‘don’t worry I will just slide my pussy outside’ and she did it, grinding her pussy on mine in a cowgirl position. After 20-30 seconds with amazing dexterity she grabbed my shaft and inserted it into her pussy. It happened so quickly. In a moment like that you can’t protest

[Tavs]

A guy knowingly going bare back with an STI is more alarming than if he gets her knocked up or not.

It is alarming but I would say that most of the girls who do bb do it regularly with quite a few guys so if you really want to go there for sloppy seconds and dont want a disease then at least get your willy wrapped or abstain.

[tommy thumb]

Yeah I no. But i can say iv done it 3 times with WL and lost count of the amount of times iv gone either bbbj or bbfs with massage girls.

[reddoor]

Well i must b one of the lucky ones 'cause my fav only does those things for me. I know she's telling me the the truth because she told me im special and would'nt lie to me and because she keeps herself just for me i give her heaps of money as she deserves it. Poor thing also has sick parents back home so occasionally she asks me for some help there too but i dont mind because being the only customer she does fs & bj for i feel truely blessed to b that special guy. As for worrying about doing bb with her, not me, i mean why should i worry im the only guy she's doing it with so very little chance of any probs. Yep she's one in a million.

[tommy thumb]

Lucky bastard red. U r truly blessed. Unlike the guy who has just started seeing the shop girl iv been banging outside of work. The girl is happy with keep our secret going, gee I feel sorry for him

P.s the guy is another punter

[brownwallaby]

I’d say at least 1 out of 3 massage shop girls have done fs at some stage of their career, and most of them who’d done it did it not for the money but because either they liked that lucky customer or they got carried away during the encounter. Not too many do it as part of their standard menu

[Tavs]

Well i must b one of the lucky ones 'cause my fav only does those things for me. I know she's telling me the the truth because she told me im special and would'nt lie to me and because she keeps herself just for me i give her heaps of money as she deserves it. Poor thing also has sick parents back home so occasionally she asks me for some help there too but i dont mind because being the only customer she does fs & bj for i feel truely blessed to b that special guy. As for worrying about doing bb with her, not me, i mean why should i worry im the only guy she's doing it with so very little chance of any probs. Yep she's one in a million.

Lucky guy. I too have one and I know how special it is to have someone like that. Even though she has been named explicitly across a range of forums and all mention she offers whatever you want, I know these reviews are from keyboard warriors who need to bs to make it look like they score cause she promises that only I get it.

[brownwallaby]

Knowing reddoor, I think he said his story with tongue in cheek, lol

[The Professor]

As for Mr Reddoor posting - WAKE UP you idiots.
With respect.
Reminds me of that lines from The Castle - " tell him......"

[The Professor]

Lucky guy. I too have one and I know how special it is to have someone like that. Even though she has been named explicitly across a range of forums and all mention she offers whatever you want, I know these reviews are from keyboard warriors who need to bs to make it look like they score cause she promises that only I get it.

And them Mr Tav's gets in on the act ...No I'm Spartacus! classic lol.

[reddoor]

Knowing reddoor, I think he said his story with tongue in cheek, lol
Haha yeah, BW picked it. A parody to tommies original post. If only it could b true.

[tommy thumb]

Knowing reddoor, I think he said his story with tongue in cheek, lol

Well his tongue is def planted. But I think I will find red plants it somewhere else.

[APL]

Well i must b one of the lucky ones 'cause my fav only does those things for me. I know she's telling me the the truth because she told me im special and would'nt lie to me and because she keeps herself just for me i give her heaps of money as she deserves it. Poor thing also has sick parents back home so occasionally she asks me for some help there too but i dont mind because being the only customer she does fs & bj for i feel truely blessed to b that special guy. As for worrying about doing bb with her, not me, i mean why should i worry im the only guy she's doing it with so very little chance of any probs. Yep she's one in a million.

I got her twin :cry::cry::cry:

[Sticky Date]

Well i must b one of the lucky ones 'cause my fav only does those things for me. I know she's telling me the the truth because she told me im special and would'nt lie to me and because she keeps herself just for me i give her heaps of money as she deserves it. Poor thing also has sick parents back home so occasionally she asks me for some help there too but i dont mind because being the only customer she does fs & bj for i feel truely blessed to b that special guy. As for worrying about doing bb with her, not me, i mean why should i worry im the only guy she's doing it with so very little chance of any probs. Yep she's one in a million.

lol... nice ... I was just wanting to express my appreciation of your effort here...and wrote lol + nice... thought that was sufficient... and then this fucking software wants me to write an essay of minimum 15 characters ... being told what to do and how to express myself by a fucking website !!!

[Sticky Date]

It is winter and shit loads of little brats at schools are getting colds.

EVERY kid and every teacher is exposed to the coughing etc in the classroom.

Yet only some kids catch the cold. Why don't they all get the cold?... since they are all exposed.

In the rapidly industrialising cities in the 1800's in Europe, USa..... there was dramatically insufficient sanitation and inadequate garbage collection. all the poor people lived in squalor and were all exposed to all sorts of viruses including smallpox and only very small numbers were vaccinated. Yet only a percentage of people ( both vac and unvac ) got small pox. Why didn't the rest get it?

In the 14th century in europe every community was exposed to the plague. In a century the population dropped in all Europe dropped from 60,000,000 to 30,000,000. Why did half of the people in each community not die?

Quite clearly there is something more going on than merely exposure to a virus / bacteria.

Sorry to break it to you.... but have you ever heard of this really obscure thing ...probably haven't.... but its called

YOUR FUCKING IMMUNE SYSTEM


It actually has a job to do.

Mine works fucking well.

I NEVER USE CONDOMS because my immune system fucking works... and I nurture it and don't abuse it.

I neither receive nor give sickness.

I would be perfectly happy to have bb fs with any sex worker on the planet regardless of what disease she may have because my army of little white and red blood cells, just says to her virus....

BRING IT ON you little virus cunts...... I'm just getting warmed up..... Is That all you got?

Just a fucking training drill if someone has herpes to try to give me.

If you believe that the difference between Herpes and love is that Herpes is for ever.....

Then you don't appreciate the power of a properly functioning immune system.

all you brainwashed mainstream indoctrinated....big pharma / govt thinking controlled people who want to respond...go your fucking hardest.....

You would have us believe that while our brain is pretty awesome...our eye sight system is amazing....our heart is seriously impressive keeping pumping lots of people 24/7 for 100 years nonstop........our dna system is fucking genius.....our sexual and reproductive system is not to be sneezed at.. and it's even FUN....but our immune system was designed and made by some shonky half wit Chinese bloke in his spare time in the rice paddy?

The only reason anybody contracts a problem from the usual bacteria or viruses, is because they are not feeding their immune system sufficiently....or are actively sabotaging their own system with toxins., or are excessively chronic stressed.

BTW.... none of this I say off the top of my head. This is how I see it, after both my own experience and reading a number of books by doctors, who actually appreciate our immune system and know how to boost it's performance.

Fuck condoms..... bullshit that they are

"the only way to protect yourself from std's".

IF I was a female hooker, I would have all by clients going bareback for sufficient money.... and the money is for jam... because I would sure as hell be taking daily steps to make sure my immune system was in tip top condition.....

BTW.... all our immune systems become penetrable in three circumstances....

1. Too much stress.
2. Too much toxins.
3. Insufficient nutrition.

Having said that, I have no issue with anyone using condoms for additional protection.. incase their immune system is not up to scratch.

I just prefer to make sure mine is healthy. It has never let me down. Had heaps of unprotected fs in Cambodia .....supposedly half the workers in Phohn Pehn have aids plus who knows what else.

and even if you do contract something and it causes you or your partner an issue....it is not good obviously.... but your fucking immune system can then deal with it, if you boost it sufficiently. all is not lost. you can recover.

But if you like buying insurance at every opportunity ( I think it is mostly (not always) a rort and very poor value... why do you think insurance companies make such huge profits?)...then my suggestion is that you not only use condoms for vaginal sex...but also for blowjob....and never give oral sex to any ML without using a dam...... definitely don't kiss her......... make sure she uses dettol on her hands prior to the happy ending....... and before you enter the premises...put on a fucking asbestos workers moon suit... and respirator. If you tell your insurance company you are taking these measures...you might even get a better deal :-)


Probably had bb sex with 20 women in Cambodia . I know for sure that one of them had tested positive for HIV. Didn't bother me. Got tested when I got back. all clear. That was 6 years ago.

all this is really just fucking uncommon sense...if you actually just THINK.... and question.

[tommy thumb]

Ahh right things just got a little crazy

[The Professor]

It is winter and shit loads of little brats at schools are getting colds.

EVERY kid and every teacher is exposed to the coughing etc in the classroom.

Yet only some kids catch the cold. Why don't they all get the cold?... since they are all exposed.

In the rapidly industrialising cities in the 1800's in Europe, USa..... there was dramatically insufficient sanitation and inadequate garbage collection. all the poor people lived in squalor and were all exposed to all sorts of viruses including smallpox and only very small numbers were vaccinated. Yet only a percentage of people ( both vac and unvac ) got small pox. Why didn't the rest get it?

In the 14th century in europe every community was exposed to the plague. In a century the population dropped in all Europe dropped from 60,000,000 to 30,000,000. Why did half of the people in each community not die?

Quite clearly there is something more going on than merely exposure to a virus / bacteria.

Sorry to break it to you.... but have you ever heard of this really obscure thing ...probably haven't.... but its called

YOUR FUCKING IMMUNE SYSTEM


It actually has a job to do.

Mine works fucking well.

I NEVER USE CONDOMS because my immune system fucking works... and I nurture it and don't abuse it.

I neither receive nor give sickness.

I would be perfectly happy to have bb fs with any sex worker on the planet regardless of what disease she may have because my army of little white and red blood cells, just says to her virus....

BRING IT ON you little virus cunts...... I'm just getting warmed up..... Is That all you got?

Just a fucking training drill if someone has herpes to try to give me.

If you believe that the difference between Herpes and love is that Herpes is for ever.....

Then you don't appreciate the power of a properly functioning immune system.

all you brainwashed mainstream indoctrinated....big pharma / govt thinking controlled people who want to respond...go your fucking hardest.....

You would have us believe that while our brain is pretty awesome...our eye sight system is amazing....our heart is seriously impressive keeping pumping lots of people 24/7 for 100 years nonstop........our dna system is fucking genius.....our sexual and reproductive system is not to be sneezed at.. and it's even FUN....but our immune system was designed and made by some shonky half wit Chinese bloke in his spare time in the rice paddy?

The only reason anybody contracts a problem from the usual bacteria or viruses, is because they are not feeding their immune system sufficiently....or are actively sabotaging their own system with toxins., or are excessively chronic stressed.

BTW.... none of this I say off the top of my head. This is how I see it, after both my own experience and reading a number of books by doctors, who actually appreciate our immune system and know how to boost it's performance.

Fuck condoms..... bullshit that they are

"the only way to protect yourself from std's".

IF I was a female hooker, I would have all by clients going bareback for sufficient money.... and the money is for jam... because I would sure as hell be taking daily steps to make sure my immune system was in tip top condition.....

BTW.... all our immune systems become penetrable in three circumstances....

1. Too much stress.
2. Too much toxins.
3. Insufficient nutrition.

Having said that, I have no issue with anyone using condoms for additional protection.. incase their immune system is not up to scratch.

I just prefer to make sure mine is healthy. It has never let me down. Had heaps of unprotected fs in Cambodia .....supposedly half the workers in Phohn Pehn have aids plus who knows what else.

and even if you do contract something and it causes you or your partner an issue....it is not good obviously.... but your fucking immune system can then deal with it, if you boost it sufficiently. all is not lost. you can recover.

But if you like buying insurance at every opportunity ( I think it is mostly (not always) a rort and very poor value... why do you think insurance companies make such huge profits?)...then my suggestion is that you not only use condoms for vaginal sex...but also for blowjob....and never give oral sex to any ML without using a dam...... definitely don't kiss her......... make sure she uses dettol on her hands prior to the happy ending....... and before you enter the premises...put on a fucking asbestos workers moon suit... and respirator. If you tell your insurance company you are taking these measures...you might even get a better deal :-)


Probably had bb sex with 20 women in Cambodia . I know for sure that one of them had tested positive for HIV. Didn't bother me. Got tested when I got back. all clear. That was 6 years ago.

all this is really just fucking uncommon sense...if you actually just THINK.... and question.

You don’t really need a strong immune system, just the CCR5-delta 32 mutation. It prevents HIV from entering CD4+ T-cells which means that HIV can’t mount an infection. puff puff

But just like the suggested "strong immune system theory" do you have it? Are you willing to take the risks?

To me its about risk and choice, not science.
RIP Freddie.

[Brissypunter]

Pretty sure everyone on this forum has gone bareback one time or more

[November Scorpio]

It is winter and shit loads of little brats at schools are getting colds.

EVERY kid and every teacher is exposed to the coughing etc in the classroom.

Yet only some kids catch the cold. Why don't they all get the cold?... since they are all exposed.

In the rapidly industrialising cities in the 1800's in Europe, USa..... there was dramatically insufficient sanitation and inadequate garbage collection. all the poor people lived in squalor and were all exposed to all sorts of viruses including smallpox and only very small numbers were vaccinated. Yet only a percentage of people ( both vac and unvac ) got small pox. Why didn't the rest get it?

In the 14th century in europe every community was exposed to the plague. In a century the population dropped in all Europe dropped from 60,000,000 to 30,000,000. Why did half of the people in each community not die?

Quite clearly there is something more going on than merely exposure to a virus / bacteria.

Sorry to break it to you.... but have you ever heard of this really obscure thing ...probably haven't.... but its called

YOUR FUCKING IMMUNE SYSTEM


It actually has a job to do.

Mine works fucking well.

I NEVER USE CONDOMS because my immune system fucking works... and I nurture it and don't abuse it.

I neither receive nor give sickness.

I would be perfectly happy to have bb fs with any sex worker on the planet regardless of what disease she may have because my army of little white and red blood cells, just says to her virus....

BRING IT ON you little virus cunts...... I'm just getting warmed up..... Is That all you got?

Just a fucking training drill if someone has herpes to try to give me.

If you believe that the difference between Herpes and love is that Herpes is for ever.....

Then you don't appreciate the power of a properly functioning immune system.

all you brainwashed mainstream indoctrinated....big pharma / govt thinking controlled people who want to respond...go your fucking hardest.....

You would have us believe that while our brain is pretty awesome...our eye sight system is amazing....our heart is seriously impressive keeping pumping lots of people 24/7 for 100 years nonstop........our dna system is fucking genius.....our sexual and reproductive system is not to be sneezed at.. and it's even FUN....but our immune system was designed and made by some shonky half wit Chinese bloke in his spare time in the rice paddy?

The only reason anybody contracts a problem from the usual bacteria or viruses, is because they are not feeding their immune system sufficiently....or are actively sabotaging their own system with toxins., or are excessively chronic stressed.

BTW.... none of this I say off the top of my head. This is how I see it, after both my own experience and reading a number of books by doctors, who actually appreciate our immune system and know how to boost it's performance.

Fuck condoms..... bullshit that they are

"the only way to protect yourself from std's".

IF I was a female hooker, I would have all by clients going bareback for sufficient money.... and the money is for jam... because I would sure as hell be taking daily steps to make sure my immune system was in tip top condition.....

BTW.... all our immune systems become penetrable in three circumstances....

1. Too much stress.
2. Too much toxins.
3. Insufficient nutrition.

Having said that, I have no issue with anyone using condoms for additional protection.. incase their immune system is not up to scratch.

I just prefer to make sure mine is healthy. It has never let me down. Had heaps of unprotected fs in Cambodia .....supposedly half the workers in Phohn Pehn have aids plus who knows what else.

and even if you do contract something and it causes you or your partner an issue....it is not good obviously.... but your fucking immune system can then deal with it, if you boost it sufficiently. all is not lost. you can recover.

But if you like buying insurance at every opportunity ( I think it is mostly (not always) a rort and very poor value... why do you think insurance companies make such huge profits?)...then my suggestion is that you not only use condoms for vaginal sex...but also for blowjob....and never give oral sex to any ML without using a dam...... definitely don't kiss her......... make sure she uses dettol on her hands prior to the happy ending....... and before you enter the premises...put on a fucking asbestos workers moon suit... and respirator. If you tell your insurance company you are taking these measures...you might even get a better deal :-)


Probably had bb sex with 20 women in Cambodia . I know for sure that one of them had tested positive for HIV. Didn't bother me. Got tested when I got back. all clear. That was 6 years ago.

all this is really just fucking uncommon sense...if you actually just THINK.... and question.

So yes Sticky Date’s Immune System theory has some rationale; however unless your Phar Lap (and perhaps SD is) repeat exposure to STDs won’t go without complications. Chlamydia is by far the most prevalent STD getting around and most women don’t get any symptoms, so they are none the wiser when Tommy Thumb’s drinking acquaintance comes a calling. They can have the STD and be completely unaware. For man you may experience a burning sensation when you wiz or have discharge. So, if you’ve recently received exceptional service which may have left you questioning your risk, best to get to the GP to do a full set of tests.

I’m not a fan of the Cover but in this punting game there can be a multiple affect. There has been from time to time as reported in this forum several MLs that are well know for their exceptional service. And once that word gets out the punters start to line up like cows to the milking trough. The question you must ask yourself is if I go un-covered, what is my flow on risk exposure, because once you’ve gone the un-covered option you are exposing yourself to all those punters and the un-covered experiences they’ve had. The number can add up quite quickly.

So if you’re a regular punter who has the luxury of kicking some high goals un-covered then get yourself checked on a regular basis. This can be important if you have others in your private life, wife, GF etc. A mate of mine has a business colleague who is currently going through marriage breakup compliments of him nearly killing his wife with an undiagnosed STD. He gave his wife the gift that keeps on giving after a few business trips into Asia where he whored his way around un-cover. There are plenty of ways to bring your marriage to an end, this is an option I would like to avoid.

Happy punting gentlemen!

[greg11]

I hope some of the girls read this stuff so they can understand what they are dealing with.

[tommy thumb]

I hope some of the girls read this stuff so they can understand what they are dealing with.

I also hope that some of the girls read this stuff. And start insisting on guys using some personal protection. As it’s clear given the choice most guys don’t give a fuck

[bjsearcher]

The crazies have definitely started to come out.

[wally2]

The crazies have definitely started to come out.

I think there are even more tongues firmly planted in cheeks from what I read in response to first post.

However there are plenty of "hotshots" that will and do put others at risk with their behavior.

The "NOB" in the original post will grow up one day I guess.

No point in saying "a pox on him".

Meanwhile stay safe fellow punters.

[bjsearcher]

I think there are even more tongues firmly planted in cheeks from what I read in response to first post.

However there are plenty of "hotshots" that will and do put others at risk with their behavior.

The "NOB" in the original post will grow up one day I guess.

No point in saying "a pox on him".

Meanwhile stay safe fellow punters.You would be surprised my friend at what risks some take with their own and others health.

[gpeck80]

Pretty sure everyone on this forum has gone bareback one time or more

With shopgirls, no. With Civilians, yep.

[blake_ly]

I've known plenty of friends who in the moment think with the wrong head.. probably never BB with a wl, but ML, maybe, not sure....:question:

[gpeck80]

You dont remember? :question:

[reddoor]

You dont remember? :question:
Gee i remember the first ml to ever fondle me and almost every memorable moment between then and now. While were talkin' about dodgy behaviour, nobody seems to mention anal with ml. Can't recall any posts about that subject at all. Gotta b happening out there somewhere. Haha

[Brissypunter]

I’ve had about 4 Japanese who love anal either with finger or Dick of course would not do with out rubber ..... not sure why but the japs seem to be right into the anal thing

[tommy thumb]

Well red 1 of my mates got it the other day. But he was on the receiving end from Pam. It’s anal but prob not what u meant.

But seriously I no a few girls who receive rim jobs are down with fingers. One shop girl I was banging for a bit, loved it in the ass. But said she never did full anal in the shop. She said she would let guys run her finger her ass fake fuck her ass. And loved when customers blew there load on it. Yet she said she never did anal. If u can believe that.....

[Homebrew]

Gee i remember the first ml to ever fondle me and almost every memorable moment between then and now. While were talkin' about dodgy behaviour, nobody seems to mention anal with ml. Can't recall any posts about that subject at all. Gotta b happening out there somewhere. Haha

hahaha, wow now you have opened a can of worms, plenty around that enjoy rimming on them and a few that do enjoy full penetration, and i agree seems that the Jap girls do like it, Thai girls will do anything for the right money, (well most of them).
2 jap girls that have now gone , one was at Yi and the other at Exquisite, also a skinny chinese girl at Yi.

[tommy thumb]

The girls I’m talking about are ex SS. 1 or 2 of them still plying there trade in that local area.

[brownwallaby]

I'm not that open-minded. Backdoor play is not for me

[Massaddict]

I'm not that open-minded. Backdoor play is not for me

Me neither. Why use the shitty back door when there is a perfectly good pussy waiting.

[thunderdome]

Yeah who wants to poke shit uphill!!!

On the matter of immune system, what is your step by step immune boosting formula superhuman formula? Please share.

[gpeck80]

He could tell you.


But then he'd have to kill you.

[rockhard2020]

I love bb sex and undoubtedly the condoms do spoil so much sensation. Most of my paid sex for the past few years has been overseas.

New girl - use a condom
Regular girl (WG or ML) use a condom
Regular live in girl just for me BB

I have had two STI in the past year when I broke this rule.
One was a 23 year old, single, non kids uni graduate. Very sweet. 7 days later my live-in friend said my dick tasted saltier.
One was a 31 year old single mature age uni student

Both girls that gave me something were not working girls and appeared more naive and innocent that others.

These days I'm just ultra careful. I swingby Coles or Chemist Warehouse on the way to a parlour. buy $6 worth of insurance. I leave the unused condoms with the girl.

My most surprising unexpected BB was at a hotel in Penang where they have great hotel spa. Was a one hour spa session, she did everything legit for 50 minutes, then just hops on top without any questions. Got away with that one.

Also, as an aside, STI checks are bulk billed in Australia. They do appear on your MyHealth record and a search of the item numbers can reveal the purpose of the tests. The prescribed drugs will also appear. I regularly check myheath and remove those lines form the record. easy.

RH

[bjsearcher]

Me neither. Why use the shitty back door when there is a perfectly good pussy waiting.2 inches tighter and 2 degrees warmer!! :-)

[gpeck80]

Gents. I give you another reason to cover up your Jimmy.

New strain of Hepatitis found in Hong Kong, spread from Rats to Human Beings.

https://www.sciencealert.com/a-rat-specific-strain-of-hepatitis-has-made-the-leap-to-humans-for-the-second-time